How The Next Generation is Using Music to Empower Their Activism
This conversation is part of an ongoing series in partnership with NYC Nightlife United highlighting the status of the music industry. We’re inviting artists and professionals from our local NYC music community to pick a collaborator to speak on an issue they're most passionate about. In our fourth piece, Terra Lopez, musical artist Rituals of Mine and publicist at Terrorbird Media, speaks with Alphabet Rockers, a Grammy nominated intergenerational hip hop group. Made up of co-founders Tommy Soulati Shepherd and Kaitlin McGaw, and youth rockers, Lillian Ellis, Kali de Jesus, Tommy Shepherd III and Maya Fleming, the groups’ motto is “making music to make change.” Together, Terra and the Alphabet Rockers speak to being an activist through music, the current education system and most importantly, why adults should be listening to the youth.
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Illustration by Steph Lau
Terra: Really, y'all are going to talk, I don't have anything important to say. I know that you all do, though, so I'm just going to help facilitate and it can honestly just be a little roundtable discussion. First off, I would love for everyone to introduce themselves and let us know your pronouns and what land you're on. I'll go first. My name is Terra. I go by she, her, hers. And I'd like to acknowledge that I am on the Chumash and Tongva Land.
Lillian: My name is Lillian. I use she/ her pronouns. And I'm on Ohlone Land.
Kali: My name is Kali, my gender pronouns are he and him, and I'm also on Ohlone Land.
Maya: Hi, I'm Maya. I go by, she/ her, and I am also on Ohlone Land.
Tommy: Hi, my name is Tommy, I go by he/ him and I'm also on Ohlone Land.
Kaitlin: Kaitlin, she/ her, on Ohlone Land.
Tommy Sr.: Tommy, he/ him/ they on Ohlone Land.
Terra: Awesome. All right, cool. I want to know what inspires each and every one of you. And it can be anything. It can be a person, it could be a feeling, it could be an emotion, it can be social justice subjects. But what inspires you currently?
Maya: What inspires me is youth out there just like me who are brave and who can use their voice and even youth who may not be able to use their voices. That still inspires me because I can think about what I need to do more for them and how to stand up and be encouraging to them.
Terra: I love that. Lilly, what inspires you?
Lillian: What inspires me is, first of all, my grandpa, because he's 84 and he's still an activist. And he always has a good, new story to tell me. One day I'll see him and he'll be like, "I want to tell you the story of why I decided to do this,” and so I just hear a lot of stories from him. And then also victories or just any victory that we have. Getting nominated for a Grammy, that was crazy! And it reminds me of the work that I'm doing. But then also, when I hear something really sad or bad that happens, this whole big rush in the Black Lives Matter movement, like it's always been a thing, but it's now becoming really popular. But sad things also reminds me why I'm doing it and that I need to keep doing it.
Terra: Yeah, I love that. Tommy, what inspires you?
Tommy: What inspires me the most... I feel like it's kind of a problem for me, at school. It's kind of this weird feeling if somebody is getting hurt, getting a different type of injustice inflicted on them. It kind of feels weird to me. And a lot of the time, I work on just doing what I need to do, standing up for people is great. And I really love standing up for people and helping other people do what they need to do. But usually at school if a teacher is not being right to a kid, then I usually speak up and that usually gets me in trouble a lot at school, and then my parents have to come in... It's just a weird feeling in my stomach, you know that feeling when you're going down a rollercoaster and it's like butterflies kind of in your stomach... it's kind of like that. It's hard for me to keep my mouth closed when somebody is sad and upset because somebody was not being fair to them. So that's kind of the encouragement for that.
Terra: Yeah. It's so important. Kali, what about you?
Kali: I agree. And also inspiration from past leaders throughout our history. And also, like Lillian was saying, things that we've accomplished through our perseverance and things that have happened to us. And also, like Tommy said, at our school I see things like that a lot. Some teachers might be disrespectful to some of the kids and that's what encourages me to do what I do, because I think that it's a necessity in my school and just anywhere in general for it to be justified and I think it's also a necessity with all the social and political troubles in the world that have happened. And sometimes it makes me sad seeing some of the things that happened, so I want to do what I do and try to fix them.
Terra: Both of you mentioned teachers being disrespectful to students. Do you come across that often?
Kali: It was mostly last year, but I don't really run into them that much anymore because we're on Zoom and people have their mics muted...
Tommy: Yeah, there are a lot of teachers that are really great, but there are some teachers that really want to learn, but it's kind of unconsciously that they're being disrespectful or treating kids unfairly. It's like they're doing it without even knowing that they're doing it. And it was a lot worse at the old school that I was at, the substitute teachers that we got... They were not very good and there was nothing we could do about it. And they just got to do whatever they wanted without any regard for anything. There was nothing for them to get in trouble about because they would just leave and not be the teacher anymore. As in another situation at my school that I'm at now, there's a couple of long term teachers that were being unfair and then they got a punishment. They knew what to do next time or what not to do next time so that kids felt safe inside of their class.
Kali: Yeah, I also agree with that, because I feel like sometimes substitutes come from different schools where the kids learn differently and they might not have time to be flexible to the kids needs and what they like as a teacher. And some of the substitutes were pretty rude so they probably come from different places where they do things differently than here. But I'm kind of used to when the teacher is cooperative too, that helps me a lot.
Terra: Big Tommy, what inspires you?
Tommy Sr.: Pretty much the same things that they're all speaking about. Just on an exponential level, because of my experience, because of my age. I wasn't as curious to any of this as they are at their age. But I can also say that I also wasn't blind to some stuff, if you know what I mean. I was into hip hop, so I knew the political side of it. And so at the time when I was a teenager, it was more slogans and ideals and ways of life and aesthetics, until I started to really understand what that was all about. But really everything I've always done has been inspired by telling stories or bringing to light different situations and scenarios in people's lives, as an actor, as a musician. And I've always just been about telling a real person's story or telling a side of a story that doesn't always get told. That inspires me and what inspires me is actually this whole crew to really keep doing what we're doing. Since we started in 2007, it's become more and more hip hop every day. It just means so much to me that our aesthetic is the way that it is. And it's been solidified more and more over the years. And we are definitely still stepping into shoes that we know are too big, but our feet are going to grow. And so that's what inspires me, too. We're going to grow into those shoes. So really just telling stories. Real talk. Hip hop. And these young stars and Kaitlin.
Terra: All of you are all so inspiring. But I want to know what got each of you interested in doing this work because it's hard work, right? So what got you into social justice initially?
Lillian: For me, like I said earlier, my family's always had the conversation, we're a multiracial family. There's people from all over, like really everywhere. Everyone in my family has relatives that were immigrants. So I always just grew up with it. And I've gone to a couple of marches with my mom before. But honestly, I have to say, what really opened my eyes was the Alphabet Rockers, because that's when I actually started doing real work. And that's how we got into other projects like the Butterfly Effect.
Terra: What about you, Kali? What got you into it?
Kali: Well, I think it was kindergarten or first grade that I met Tommy, Little T, and he actually kind of got me into it. And then it kind of went from there. And social justice, I mean, you see it all around you and you can't really avoid the social issues that you have. So that's why I keep on fighting for it.
Terra: Love it. Maya, what about you? Why did you get involved?
Maya: Well, I've always wanted social justice for this world and I've always been interested in it, but ever since I was little, I would, for example, at school, speak up about things if I saw that something wasn't fair or someone was being treated unfairly. And like Lillian was saying, now that I'm in the Alphabet Rockers, I've grown so much from this experience because I've gotten to learn more about how I can step up to create, and use my voice to create more social justice for the world.
Terra: Love it. Little Tommy, what got you involved in wanting to fight?
Tommy: My parents. They told me about what was happening in the world. Not just so I could know it, but also so I could stand up for other people and stand up for myself. If like, say, I got pulled over by the police or the cops get mad at me on my bike with my friends, I know what to do to keep myself safe and also to keep my friends safe. There's some things that other people don't have to do and think about in this type of situation. And I have to just make sure that that's always, not even in the back of my mind, just my main thing that I'm thinking about... I was scared of the police for a long time. And I'm still pretty scared of the police because what they can do to people, and what they have done to people... The Alphabet Rockers showed me how I can do something about it and how I can try to fight against racism, all these problems in the world.
Terra: Wow, Big Tommy, how old was Little Tommy when you first had the conversations about the police and what to do if you get pulled over?
Tommy Sr: Probably like 6 or 7. Well, I mean, there's two sides of that because we didn't talk about being pulled over until he was able to go away on his bike alone, which was more like 11.
Terra: But 6 or 7 was the initial conversation?
Tommy Sr.: Yeah, right T?
Tommy: Yeah, around 6 or 7. Also when that thing happened with one kid at school, so that's a time that I think we talked about it.
Tommy Sr.: Right. That was preschool, a kid said the N word to him and so we talked about that. But as far as what Tommy is talking about, we knew we had to really tell him about something, but also try not to hurt him. But they're also hurtful things, you know? And that's really a testament to, you said how do we get into social justice? I think it was meeting my girlfriend, who became my wife, and then the community that we surrounded ourselves with, and built, led us to speaking up about these things. My wife is very into social justice and restorative justice, healing and all of these things. And so I think it's like just kind of been in our bones and just been inspired by that.
Kaitlin: I was 14 years old and it was actually just youth programs talking to each other about systems of bias. And actually, one of the folks from that time in my life is still an Alphabet Rocker, Stephanie, she's the art director. But we had really honest conversations with adult mentors about, how is sexism at work? How are we participating in it even as women? And that's how I identified at the time. How is racism a part of my body, in a white body? And so as soon as I learned that, it's still the framework, but once you know something, it changes everything. So I feel like this is the same beloved community that I had when I was 14, even though you weren't all born yet. Tom and I hadn't met...
Tommy Sr.: And it's growing. It's ever-growing not just because it has to, but because it is.
Terra: Beautiful. Well, what would you tell other kids who maybe want to get started in activism, but maybe they haven't met like-minded kids yet or they want to get involved, but they just don't know what the first step would be. What would your advice be to those kids?
“It’s ever-growing not just because it has to, but because it is.”
Maya: My advice would be to speak up, use your voice and don't be afraid to just think a thought. Don't be afraid to let an adult know if something is going on in your life that you don't feel comfortable about. Communicate. Don't be afraid to really put yourself out there. It can be hard to be comfortable with letting people know. I used to be like that. So I get it. But try your best to just let people know and don't be afraid to put yourself out there.
Kali: I mean, do your research, too, because you won't know if you don't see these things happen. And if you don't have the confidence at first, then you should try going to a protest because that's your community and they're with you. And then once you gain that confidence, then you know how to deal with things on your own. But even if you're on your own, when you have to deal with these things, you should know that you still have your community with you. And they'll still stand up for you, even though they're not there at the time. They're still going to support you.
Terra: I love that. Go to a protest. That's so important to be able to find your community of folks. So even if you can't find maybe kids your age, maybe you'll find the kids and the people there that are going to be like-minded and believe in what you believe in. That's awesome. What would each of your perfect worlds look like if you could flip a switch and tomorrow it would be your perfect world? What would that be?
Lillian: Well, I mean, in my fantasy world it would just be London, a non-racist London where they accept immigrants. And then I would also be just performing with the Alphabet Rockers all the time, then going out to Mexican food after every show as a group. But other than that, maybe slightly more realistically… I just would want a world where I'm not living in fear. Like sometimes all of a sudden, I don't know, like the KKK will just come to my mind, for no reason, and then I won't be able to sleep that night. And I don't want to have to live in that fear. And I don't want to have to live in fear or sadness that... like there are multiple, like lots and lots of people literally in cages right now, even though they did absolutely nothing. And not just immigrants, also prison, youth prisons, juvenile prisons like... Why? I feel so privileged because every day I know that someone is in a cage, that someone is being harassed, that someone is just going through a really tough time for a wrong reason, or maybe no reason at all…
Kali: Yeah, I agree. I'd want to live in a place where it's all equal and we don't have to think about who's better, who has more privilege and who doesn't have that much. Who has more money and who doesn't. Because what I've actually realized is, from a young age, you don't learn about differences as much as when you grow older and about racism and all that. Because there's people in the world, that for instance, think that darker skinned people might be less than lighter skinned people. But you don't learn that from a young age and you're not born with that mindset. So I'd like it to be equal where that was never learned in the first place…
Maya: My perfect world, partly what Lillian said, was to not live in fear. This is something I think about a lot, but how the next day of schools is going to go. Is it going to be scary? Is something bad going to happen? Am I going to get called out for no reason just because of my skin color or because I might not have done something right? Or anything that might not be a fair reason and just not having to live with a bad mindset. And live positively and still try to live positively, even though there may be negative things in the world.
Terra: Little Tommy, what does your perfect world look like?
Tommy: I feel like my perfect world would being able to perform with the Alphabet Rockers. But not because I'm trying to make somebody feel better, because it should just all be equal in every way. And I feel like people shouldn't have to protest all this. It's very hard to have equality, but I feel like everybody should at least start at the same place because, in my opinion, privilege is a thing that's just there and it's really hard to take away because I feel like if you took away privilege, you could work as hard as you can, but you could still not get any extra privilege for that. And I feel like that's not very fair, but I feel like people of color work super, super hard and work harder than some people that are white and still not get where they are, because that's how the system is and that's how it is right now. Also everybody just recognizing their privilege. I'm even recognizing my privilege. Some people have to think about going out in the world, “Am I going to live today?” Things like that.
Terra: Do you think that adults understand that you all are thinking about these things? Do you think that adults, realize that these are real, genuine worries that you all have? You are telling me that this is something that you think about, it keeps you up at night or you're worried about going to school because of this. Do you think that adults respect that and understand?
Group: No.
Lillian: No, not at all. I was just talking about this with someone at my school, cause we were doing a thing about identity, and one of the questions was, “why is this so important to you?” It's important to me because most people think really little of kids, like I say this quote all the time, well, I paraphrase it, and I say, "we may be small, but we have a big voice and we know how to use it." It's from a book called Strong is the New Pretty. And it's just like [adults] think less of us. I mean, clearly Kaitlin and Tommy don't because we're working with them. But even in interviews, they're interviewing us to see what we know. And they'll be like, "So, is this fun? Is it fun?" I've had that question asked three times in different interviews. I love this group. I love being with amazing people like this. But I don't want to have to do this. My first job is literally fighting for rights. I shouldn't have to do that at this age. And also we're living in the same world that you are. If you don't tell your kid stuff, then they're going to find out on their own, especially with social media and technology, but also just asking other people… So it's just really unfair a lot of the time. I feel very privileged in that way, too. I'm able to do all these things because of this group and because of other groups that I'm in. So I feel very privileged that my voice is heard.
“My first job is literally fighting for rights.”
Tommy: Yeah, that's true. And it's one thing, for my skin color, to be looked at stupidly, but also because I'm little and I'm a kid, people also look at me like I'm dumb. And sometimes in interviews they'll ask us a question, we don't want to answer it and then they'll ask the question the same way three different times in three different ways. I'm like, I'm not dumb, I'm intelligent! I feel like sometimes kids, and the perception that they see things from is in a whole different way than adults, that make us even smarter than adults. And also experience! Of course adults can always teach us something new because they've been through life and they also have been a kid before, so you should know that you wanted respect when you were a kid. Like in my dad's generation, things were a lot different, the way that adults treated kids back then, and the way that things got dealt with with kids. And I feel like, why would you want the next generation to do the same exact thing? And I ask myself, do adults feel like because they didn't get treated right, do they want us not to get treated right? Why would you do that then? Society never gets further, It just stays in the same place then.
Terra: I mean, this conversation is a lot more enlightening than I've had with people that are a lot older than all of you. So this is amazing. What do you think adults could do to better listen to kids like you all who know the answers? Because, you all are going to change this world, I know that. What can adults do to empower kids to use their voice, and to listen and help further this trajectory?
Maya: I feel like adults can acknowledge more of the youth's ideas and really take the time to listen to what we have to say, just as we listen to adults. One, because there are parents and because they know more because they were a kid once. And also, if they could just be patient with us, like some adults are just like, "okay, whatever." Or don't really like to take the time out of their day to sit down and talk with us. Or like Lilly was saying, talk to us about problems in this world because we're going to find out eventually. But I feel like just taking the time to make sure that we're getting the help that we need so that when we grow up, we can grow up to be amazing people.
Kali: I think if they gave us more of a chance sometimes. They say sometimes that [these] are "adult topics" and I don't want to generalize that all adults do this and they say that. But I think that part of the reason why they think that we don't know as much, and we can't handle these things is that sometimes they don't educate us. They tell us some of our history, but they don't tell it all. They don't want to tell us about these important things that they think we can't handle because we're kids. And then they might not even ask us questions about these things because of our age. But I think that if we're educated more, then we'd have a greater knowledge.
Terra: OK, so Maya said adults listen, Kali said, tell the real history. Lilly, what do you think adults can do?
Lillian: Your kids are going to find out things by themselves. I had a friend in my class, after a bunch of big school shootings that had happened, I think was in fourth grade, her parents weren't ready to tell her all about all the violence yet, "we don't think she's ready for it." One, she's ready This was something to tell her when it happened. And two, we're already learning about it in school. We're already having active shooter drills at school. So whether you would like to tell her or not, she's going to find out. So have your voice be your kids internal dialog. Tell them what you think they should know, tell them what you think is right, give them your opinion. They want to know! They need some sort of dialog when they're making decisions, so tell them! And also schools need to become better with harassment and bullying. I think all of us have definitely experienced problems at school and are still experiencing them. I think schools need to get better at realizing what's happening and taking notice of it and actually doing something about it, because it's not working right now. We're the ones getting in trouble when the school needs to be taught, to be educated.
Terra: OK. All right. The adults will be listening! Little Tommy, do you have anything that you think outside of all of that, that adults can do or should be doing?
Tommy: I always think about [how] adults have emotions just like everybody else. I don't have to work all day and all night to pay for a nice house. So I have to put myself in that situation. I hate homework and I'm like, dang, I have to do a job some day just so I can live in a house and sleep somewhere. I'm going to be tired after that! I'll be a little bit on edge after that! I'll be short with everybody after that… But it's very important that they tell us because it's a matter of if they're going to find out from you or are they going to find out in an unhealthy way. Maybe they'll see a video like George Floyd. That can damage somebody if they never have seen that before, if they've never heard about it. It hurts to watch something like that. And that's what adults should just tell their kids. They might be sad and they should! Because what is happening right now is sad, it's devastating and it's not fair... What are you going to do so that doesn't happen anymore to anybody, so that doesn't happen to your community? I feel like that should be the things that adults should be telling their kids.
Terra: I love it, I'm so excited for adults to read this and I truly do hope that adults learn from you all in and actually put this into practice with their own children.
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