Producer Madge & Artist May Daniels Talk Gender, Expression and Paris Hilton
Photos by May Daniels
Madge and May meet for drinks at a Silver Lake bar that does weekend happy hour. Madge, gender-bending DIY pop producer, and May Daniels, editorial photographer and model exploring queer and intersectional feminine space, are good friends and recent collaborators.
May recently styled, shot, and edited a series of photos featuring Madge as an early 2000s socialite from the perspective of paparazzi, featuring models Danny Lane, Simone Thompson, Clare Gillies and Christopher Bennion with makeup by Sasha Borax. Madge is also releasing a new song today called “Cry A Lil”, co-written and produced by Ceci G. Find the photo series, the single, and their conversation below.
May: Do you think you’ll be able to actually hear this?
Madge: Hmmm… probably!
(both lean toward iPhone on table)
May: Helloooo…
Madge: I’m gonna sample that in a song!
May: This is so scary…
Madge: (turns up recording volume) Oh, do you want me to put this away?
May: No, no, no, it’s fine! I just realized right now that I’ve never actually done a recorded interview before… Okay… (pulls up list of interview questions) What are your biggest influences of the past?
Madge: This is tricky for me because I grew up Mormon and so my influences are highly influenced by that. I kind of grew up in a bubble and I didn’t see a lot of pop culture. So when I did see it, I saw the loudest things and I probably clung to them more than “normal” people. I remember being fascinated by Paris Hilton. I also remember being judgmental because she so clearly didn’t fit into my Mormon paradigm. But secretly I wanted to be her. I find myself referencing these feelings and fantasies all the time in my work - even when I’m making something serious.
May: Fuck yeah. I feel like Paris and Britney… Oh thank you so much!
(Server brings over two glasses of rosé. It’s 4:30 pm.)
May: (posh English accent) Cheers!
Madge: (unrecognizable accent) Cheers!
*clink*
May: The thing about Paris and Britney is that they were so trashy and that was the draw. And they owned it. They did everything they weren’t supposed to - they had sex on camera and would go out not wearing underwear. It’s amazing to see women who change the mold and play with those kinds of power dynamics. “I’m a slut and so what?”
Madge: So, in the photoshoot we did together, this idea was kind of our template. Do you feel like this influences your overall aesthetic as a photographer or stylist or model?
May: I’m sure it does in a lot of unconscious ways. I was especially influenced by Britney growing up… Seeing her be super successful and still go out looking like a mess. Maybe she didn’t have a lot of intention behind it - it’s just genuinely who she is - but even that is so empowering to me. I don’t know if it influences my everyday art, but it does influence my sense of rebellion.
(May and Madge decide to switch tables and tag team the move which includes transporting drinks and bags of groceries…)
May: See, I’m a bag lady.
Madge: Same. Truly.
May: Okay… (looks at questions) Who is Madge? And what is the inspo behind the name?
Madge: Ooh yeah this is a good one. Going back to the Mormon thing, I grew up pretty conservatively with a lot of rules. Ultimately it ended up sending me to a dark place and when I was literally rehabilitating from that, I became obsessed with mythology. I read a book about Celtic mythology and learned about Maeve, who is this archetypal goddess of madness and creativity and addiction. I loved that. And then Madge is kind of a modern, mischievous version of Maeve. She felt like the things I create - aka mostly ridiculous hahaha…
May: It feels like there’s a grounding in this character. There’s the goddess side and the human side. Something big and unattainable but also something petty and shallow. It actually reminds me so much of someone like Britney - powerful star but also just fucking up all the time on a public stage. Clearly so human.
Madge: YES! And I love that. I think I’m still learning about myself but somewhere in there is a person who really just wants to be human. And I think that Madge lets me explore this in a space that feels objective. Almost like an alter ego. What about you? I know you use your own name, but do you feel like you have an alter ego?
May: I don’t think about it that much. I don’t generally enjoy being the center of attention, which ironically is so required of what I do for work. I really relish the behind-the-scenes. I don’t know if I’d say I have an alter ego, but I’m definitely more myself when I’m not the center of attention. I don’t know… maybe I should get one. Maybe it would help me separate my personal and professional life.
Madge: If you had to choose an alter ego name this very second what would it be? Hot take. Hit me.
May: Well… my dominatrix name was Venus. It was like the Björk song, “Venus As A Boy”. That song is so focused on the woman’s experience and that spoke to me. I think that really plays into being a dom. Unless you’re a switch, it’s about YOUR experience. You being in control and you being the powerful one.
Madge: I think I love being in power, but I also resent it. I like the ability to be small.
May: Madge seems like a safe way to play out power fantasies. Maybe I should use the name Venus from now on.
Madge: You have to! Can you even imagine? I guess this is going on the record, and you know this, but I’ve actually been picking up shifts at [a local *exotic* dance club] and using the name Madge in that setting has been wildly interesting. It gives me all kinds of power play. Literally the power to get money thrown at you.
May: I get that. That’s especially powerful because asking for money as a woman is hard. It’s hard to work in this industry and vouch for yourself. I had a friend who pretended to be her own manager via email.
Madge: Genius.
May: I love that you’re incorporating this into your performance, though. What can we expect going forward? What would be your dream set up?
Madge: I want to make my live show an interactive experience in untraditional venues - art galleries, strip clubs, etc. I want to pull out the stops and make it a variety show. A wacky time.
May: I see you doing performance art.
Madge: Definitely. I see you doing this, too! Your photos and art direction are highly performative. Tell me about that.
May: I’m definitely a storyteller. A lot of what I’m doing is concept-based rather than composition. I tend to gather people who also want to build on concept and get in character so I can create a narrative by just catching the moment… I like to find a balance between planning out a shoot and then creating a moment where people can naturally become part of the story so I can capture it. I would rather capture something authentic than get wrapped up in the minutia. It’s almost like I’m making little movies.
Madge: Do you think you’d ever do that? Or do you think you’ll stick to photography?
May: I’d like to do all of it. Honestly. The next step for me is probably taking a course so I can better execute my ideas, but I’d love to do video.
(both order another round)
May: Would you be open to getting into how you approach gender dynamics and performance?
Madge: Yeah! So… I was raised as a woman and I still use the pronouns she/her frequently. However, I feel pulled between gender all the time and my gender expression reflects that. If I had to choose a pronoun that feels the most authentic to me, it would be they/them. I feel both fluid and nonbinary. I will write from the perspective of “boy” all the time. And when I explore the world of “girl”, it feels like drag. Like, how clownish can I make this? How can I make this powerful and extreme? I know - on a pole with ten inch heels and a push up bra.
May: Yes! We’ve talked about this. In the same way, when I inhabit the feminine space I also feel like it’s a costume. I feel like I need to make it a performance, like, let’s take this all the way… It’s almost more comfortable for me that way.
Madge: Tell me more about how you operate in a feminine space!
May: When I’m with likeminded people, I feel very powerful as a woman. The witchy stuff is what I heavily identify with. But I’m not into society’s interpretation of what that means. I’m not into society’s rules of what it means to be a woman. I still identity as a woman and I still feel very attuned to the divine feminine. It’s an important part of me. But I’m not down for how we are usually treated.
Madge: I think you make that so clear to those around you. I love you for it and it’s so powerful.
(pause)
Madge: Wow, we are really nailing this, right? A-plus to us.
May: Totally. We are KILLING this.
(pause)
May: Last question. What can the industry improve on to better support fem/female artists?
Madge: Great last question. I think there needs to be more comfortable space to operate in and greater visibility